Cyclocross Brakes: Canti's still King
This has been the wildcard of cyclocross seasons. The schedule started earlier, fields have been filling up faster than ever, and the UCI has greatly changed the ruling on cyclocross races. The man made barrier size and frequency has been changed, there has been a cap placed on tire size, and finally the allowance of disc brakes.
As seen on various social networking sites and overheard in many beer fueled conversations, I have not much cared for this decision. It has sounded something like "*explative* Disc brakes? what the *explative*, the god *explative explatives* are *explativing* the sport up". With the rebirth of the blog, I am prepared to release a statement from the Soupie network. Sorry dorks, but canti's are still king.
Between the trade show and viewing 2 UCI cyclocross races canti's are still the brake of choice. Both nittany cross and cross vegas (perhaps the deepest field in american cycling due to EURO content) had only one rider with disc brakes in each field, and it was the same guy.
It is important to look at these things as the complete picture, so I will refute where necessary.
"BUT SOUPIE!!!!!! it is still dry out, there is no reason to run discs now". Fair, but you are telling me that in addition to running different frames for the wetter part of the season, a UCI racer is going to either spend extra coin to run new wheels? new wheels that are tubular? build wheels that are disc complatible and tubular?!
Not likely, tubulars which increase traction and overall cornering and performance, would not likely be sacrificed to increase braking power.
I would also like to hypothesize that with 32c tires, braking power loses importance. Currently the Soupie laboratory, the soupatory, is under construction and i have no real way of quantifying this with numbers (let alone an acurate way). So let us philosophize. Disc brakes work well with mountain tires due to contact patch, volume of tire, tread, etc. At what point when actuating a brake with a 32c tire do you lock the wheel up and lose traction. TRACTION is also KING. Too many kings, i do say, too many kings. Until Lenard Zinn puts inconclusive, pro consumer, pro consuming, hard to understand and skewed numbers to this, we are just going to have to think reeeeeel hard about it.
"but soupie, companies havn't had time to develop prototypes for the show yet"
FAIR! this is totally fair, however the disk brake option is firmly the BB7 road from avid, not the greatest brake ever created but one of the better mechanical disc brakes. In many STI setups, these brakes still leave alot to be desired. How are they going to retro fit hydraulics? There has been rumor of a cable to reservoir hydraulic in the works. Lets take one sentence to troubleshoot your braking problem. Is it the cable tension or the bleed or your pads being contaminated or pads being worn out to create a mushy lever feel? It is a good thing we have a whole 7 minute lap to figure this out.
In addition, these companies have had time to develop multiple diferent belt drive cross bike with disc brake setups. A great new trend in cycling, but not race material. Sure, great brands like phil wood, sycip, et al have found ways to design a frame around accepting a belt drive for a 135 spaced rear hub for discs. What about the bigger hurdles. 130 spaced disc hub? frame clearance for the disc? what about q factor? sure mountain bikes have 135 spacing but each year between special prototype pedals, bb90, bb 96, bb30, and doubles, q factor has been a hot button issue. q factor has been less of an issue with cross bikes and road bikes and now we are just going to toss that to the wind?! Not on my watch!
I won't even go in to the 8% of effenciency lost on those belt drive bikes due to the internally geared hub. My Power is up by like 8% from last year.
"Soupie, what about brake shudder?"
The one thing i have always asked is to not get me started on brake shudder. It is always the same thing, "my cantis make noise" "my cantis won't stop" "my cantis make noise and won't stop" "my cantis shudder". First of all, examine the beast. JBV Cycling coach Chris Mayhew was running Dia Comp cantis older than I am on his cross rig. Limited pad adjustment, limited spring adjustment, only stradle and hanger adjustments. He acquired them off of Gunnar Shogren because the brakes weren't old enough for Gunnar. A nice trip to Google Images brought to you by Robbie Sedgewick will show that the over all design between Tektro, TRP, Dia Comp, Kore, FSA, Spooky, Paul, and Avid Shorty Ultimates are all pretty much the same. Short lever arms by the post, wide straddle set up. Some are forged, some are sandwhich constructed, cnc machined, and carbon fiber. Give or take a barrel adjuster, 2.5mm straddle set screws, spring adjustments. Some have opted for a lower hanger to reduce brake shudder and this seems to be working much better. I am waiting for a side by side test though, a few people have set up there bikes with this and i wonder how much tuning they adjusted from previous years shuddering. New pads or pad angle? I am still going with the steerer tube hanger and after 2 rides on my new pads the shudder disappated. With disc brakes i worry about fork whip. How beefy will the forks need to get to handle it, disc brakes inherently make noise at somepoint and usually that is a $40 fix with new pads. How true will your rotors stay when you are stuffing 8 wheelsets in the back of a station wagon?
In reality, how many spots did you lose in a race to brake shudder or brake noise? Where there races where you brake performance could have changed your outcome? More brake at Granogue would have been good, but what about more tire or less rain? Hundreds of finishers running the same brakes. Certainly more derailleur based DNF's than brake related DNF's
The root of my true feelings is that cantilevers are a true part of cyclocross. They don't stop all that well. Many will argue that cantilevers do work, and I myself can ride observed trials on my cross bike (poorly). When it is slimey out, they don't work, and if they did, your tires wouldnt work. It is very much part of the sport to be schlogging it through boggy sections and trying not to die on downhill and off camber sections. Maybe my fear was that it would change cyclocross, but the more i examine it the less i worry. The UCI emblem is of a racer carrying a bike, not descending with convidence.
As seen on various social networking sites and overheard in many beer fueled conversations, I have not much cared for this decision. It has sounded something like "*explative* Disc brakes? what the *explative*, the god *explative explatives* are *explativing* the sport up". With the rebirth of the blog, I am prepared to release a statement from the Soupie network. Sorry dorks, but canti's are still king.
Between the trade show and viewing 2 UCI cyclocross races canti's are still the brake of choice. Both nittany cross and cross vegas (perhaps the deepest field in american cycling due to EURO content) had only one rider with disc brakes in each field, and it was the same guy.
It is important to look at these things as the complete picture, so I will refute where necessary.
"BUT SOUPIE!!!!!! it is still dry out, there is no reason to run discs now". Fair, but you are telling me that in addition to running different frames for the wetter part of the season, a UCI racer is going to either spend extra coin to run new wheels? new wheels that are tubular? build wheels that are disc complatible and tubular?!
Not likely, tubulars which increase traction and overall cornering and performance, would not likely be sacrificed to increase braking power.
I would also like to hypothesize that with 32c tires, braking power loses importance. Currently the Soupie laboratory, the soupatory, is under construction and i have no real way of quantifying this with numbers (let alone an acurate way). So let us philosophize. Disc brakes work well with mountain tires due to contact patch, volume of tire, tread, etc. At what point when actuating a brake with a 32c tire do you lock the wheel up and lose traction. TRACTION is also KING. Too many kings, i do say, too many kings. Until Lenard Zinn puts inconclusive, pro consumer, pro consuming, hard to understand and skewed numbers to this, we are just going to have to think reeeeeel hard about it.
"but soupie, companies havn't had time to develop prototypes for the show yet"
FAIR! this is totally fair, however the disk brake option is firmly the BB7 road from avid, not the greatest brake ever created but one of the better mechanical disc brakes. In many STI setups, these brakes still leave alot to be desired. How are they going to retro fit hydraulics? There has been rumor of a cable to reservoir hydraulic in the works. Lets take one sentence to troubleshoot your braking problem. Is it the cable tension or the bleed or your pads being contaminated or pads being worn out to create a mushy lever feel? It is a good thing we have a whole 7 minute lap to figure this out.
In addition, these companies have had time to develop multiple diferent belt drive cross bike with disc brake setups. A great new trend in cycling, but not race material. Sure, great brands like phil wood, sycip, et al have found ways to design a frame around accepting a belt drive for a 135 spaced rear hub for discs. What about the bigger hurdles. 130 spaced disc hub? frame clearance for the disc? what about q factor? sure mountain bikes have 135 spacing but each year between special prototype pedals, bb90, bb 96, bb30, and doubles, q factor has been a hot button issue. q factor has been less of an issue with cross bikes and road bikes and now we are just going to toss that to the wind?! Not on my watch!
I won't even go in to the 8% of effenciency lost on those belt drive bikes due to the internally geared hub. My Power is up by like 8% from last year.
"Soupie, what about brake shudder?"
The one thing i have always asked is to not get me started on brake shudder. It is always the same thing, "my cantis make noise" "my cantis won't stop" "my cantis make noise and won't stop" "my cantis shudder". First of all, examine the beast. JBV Cycling coach Chris Mayhew was running Dia Comp cantis older than I am on his cross rig. Limited pad adjustment, limited spring adjustment, only stradle and hanger adjustments. He acquired them off of Gunnar Shogren because the brakes weren't old enough for Gunnar. A nice trip to Google Images brought to you by Robbie Sedgewick will show that the over all design between Tektro, TRP, Dia Comp, Kore, FSA, Spooky, Paul, and Avid Shorty Ultimates are all pretty much the same. Short lever arms by the post, wide straddle set up. Some are forged, some are sandwhich constructed, cnc machined, and carbon fiber. Give or take a barrel adjuster, 2.5mm straddle set screws, spring adjustments. Some have opted for a lower hanger to reduce brake shudder and this seems to be working much better. I am waiting for a side by side test though, a few people have set up there bikes with this and i wonder how much tuning they adjusted from previous years shuddering. New pads or pad angle? I am still going with the steerer tube hanger and after 2 rides on my new pads the shudder disappated. With disc brakes i worry about fork whip. How beefy will the forks need to get to handle it, disc brakes inherently make noise at somepoint and usually that is a $40 fix with new pads. How true will your rotors stay when you are stuffing 8 wheelsets in the back of a station wagon?
In reality, how many spots did you lose in a race to brake shudder or brake noise? Where there races where you brake performance could have changed your outcome? More brake at Granogue would have been good, but what about more tire or less rain? Hundreds of finishers running the same brakes. Certainly more derailleur based DNF's than brake related DNF's
The root of my true feelings is that cantilevers are a true part of cyclocross. They don't stop all that well. Many will argue that cantilevers do work, and I myself can ride observed trials on my cross bike (poorly). When it is slimey out, they don't work, and if they did, your tires wouldnt work. It is very much part of the sport to be schlogging it through boggy sections and trying not to die on downhill and off camber sections. Maybe my fear was that it would change cyclocross, but the more i examine it the less i worry. The UCI emblem is of a racer carrying a bike, not descending with convidence.
posted by Soupie! at 11:02 PM
3 Comments:
Sweet. A by name mention in the Soupie Files.
BTW, I have actually been working on making it so that when you search for "cantilever brakes" on shopping.google.com you actually get cantilever brakes.
--Robbie
disc brake may never be king but trying to justify it though a small contact patch brought on to be a 32 tires is not looking at the physics of it. A 32mm tire and 40mm have the exact same size contact patch with different shapes. The skinnier tires in theory will actually brake and accelerate better due to a longer but narrow contact patch.
now that physics has shown that a skinnier tire will actually brake better, you do realize disc will modulate better? which in wet condition that your tire 'dont work" in should actually work better because instead of being on off there is alot of gray from on to off with disc brakes.
in the end with any sport it doesnt matter what the roots all that matter is what makes you go faster that day.
I disagree. The 32mm tire and the 40mm would have the same size contact patch if they were inflated to the same pressure, but you are likely to have to inflate the 32mm tire more to keep you from bottoming out.
After you inflate it more the 32mm tire will have a smaller contact patch.
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